Welcome back to the 411mania Wrestling Fact or Fiction. I’m your host Jake Chambers.
It’s time for the finals of our semi-annual Larry Csonka Memorial Wrestling Fact or Fiction Tournament. This year we have two newcomers to the tournament and the finals going up against the inaugural winner and long-time friend of Larry: it’s AEW weekly Dynamite reviewer Ryan Cioccp vs. AEW weekly Collision reviewer Theo Sambus vs. reviewer emeritus Steve Cook.
For this year’s tournament I chose all reviewers to take part (shout out to Jeremy Thomas, Thomas Hall and Himanshu Doi), since reviewing was such a major part of Larry’s impact on this site and online pro-wrestling fandom culture. It needs to be reiterated, as we celebrate his life, that Larry Csonka was one of the most prolific and respected wrestling event and match reviewers in the world. I’m sure most would argue his scores were second only to Dave Meltzer as far as influence and impact across the fandom. Much of this had to do with just the heroic volume of shows that he was reviewing, but his reputation also hinged on having a singular voice – one that didn’t seem influenced by popularity or trends.
As more and more people review shows and matches online, with almost every fan now having a library of their own star ratings and Cagematch becoming a default Rotten Tomatoes for pro-wrestling, it might hard for those who weren’t reading this website back then to fully understand Larry’s importance for all those years. But for those who do, let’s take a moment to reflect on why Larry was so great and how much we truly do miss his presence in the world.
With that being said, today there are 3 statements up for debate by our three reviewer finalists. The theme is match reviewing – let’s see who wins the day in honor of 411mania’s greatest reviewer. There will be a poll at the end of their responses where you can vote for the winner.
Participants were told to expect wrestling-related content, as well as possible statements on quantum physics, homemade pharmaceuticals, the Turtle Total Trip Theorem, pizza and hydroponics.
Statement #1: You believe you could declare a new match that you are watching live for the very first time – while reviewing a show for 411 – as the best match of all time.
Ryan Ciocco: FICTION – I don’t think that, now, you could really do that. If someone says right after a match ended that it is the best match of all time, I feel like this commentary should be taken with a teaspoon of salt. No scratch that, you need the tablespoon for that proclamation. It’s one thing to like a match, and maybe I am not as battle tested at this as some of the others who recap and review on here, but I feel like I can really like a match without dubbing it the GOAT as soon as it is over. I might get excited over it, I might think it is something amazing and eclipses four-stars on the universal, tried true and tested reviewer’s star rating system, but history shows more resolve and more perspective in such matters than snap decisions.
Although, I suppose that the cop-out we could go for here is if someone says, on the spot, that the match they just saw was ONE of the best matches of all time and now THE best match of all-time, it does allow for some wiggle room and breathing space. Saying it is ONE of the best matches of all time opens the pantheon to the discussion as to what other matches fit into that group, and that is another discussion for another day.
Steve Cook: FICTION – I am way too old and have seen way too much stuff to declare anything I’ve seen in the last minute as the best of all time. I see people do this all the time, and I cut them slack because most of them are much younger than I. They haven’t watched enough pro wrestling to realize that The Miz isn’t the greatest heel of all time (much love to Miz, he’s had a tremendous career but he would understand what I’m saying since he’s also a student of pro wrestling). On the other hand, we have folks like Dave Meltzer, who I don’t want to disrespect since he’s done a lot of great work with reporting, but he also extends that star rating for the most recent match Will Ospreay had. Dave keeps extending that star rating, which will be an issue for me in this column.
I feel like matches need to age before being declared as the greatest of all time. Which might be a weakness if I wanted to be a wrestling hot take artist and featured on the “top” wrestling websites… but I’m already here at 411. Fuck those hot take website marks. I’m happy to be here telling you that the match you saw last night probably wasn’t the greatest match of all time. Maybe you’ll watch some more matches to find out it wasn’t. I hope you do.
Theo Sambus: FICTION – Good Lord, no! The internet along with the space/time continuum would likely implode, and I don’t want to be responsible for that.
In all seriousness, I don’t think anyone can reliably make that call on a first-time viewing without falling into some intense hyperbole. A bonafide five-star match, sure – I’ve got no qualms with going for the full five in the moment (just this year, I gave five stars to Danielson vs Ospreay and Danielson vs Swerve Strickland), and I don’t feel those need to be justified with a rewatch or the benefit of time. When it comes to the greatest match ever, however, that call needs to be made away from live bias and away from all the hype leading up to the event itself.
Thinking about it, I’m not convinced I’d be able to offer a candidate for the ‘best match of all time’ – it’s so wildly subjective, and picking just one is a nigh-on impossible task, especially when you start factoring in hindsight and context. I mean, I used to have Angle/Benoit from the Royal Rumble ’03 right up there, but uhhh…yeah. *nervous grimace*
Danielson vs McGuinness from ROH Unified is easily one of my personal favorite matches, and what they accomplished in front of roughly 1700 fans was phenomenal, but I’d be hard pressed to categorically put that up as one of the best of all time. It’s here we start entering the territory of ‘is a 5-star match in a forest still a 5-star match?’ How big a part does the crowd play in these matches? I’d wager it’s a pretty big factor, especially in terms of those indelible memories imprinted on us. Austin/Bret, HBK/Undertaker, Austin/Rock, Hogan/Andre – the Wrestlemania spectacle is a huge part of why they’re so fondly remembered, and you need that slight distancing of time to see how they influenced generations of fans and aspiring wrestlers.
That’s equally one of the primary considerations in my book – what did the match mean for the industry? And aside from the context within the relevant storyline, does it hold up on its own when viewed in isolation? Is it something that brought in new fans at the time, or is it a match we can confidently show off to non-wrestling fans as an example of the heights of this great sport? There are so many endless factors to consider. I don’t have an easy answer for what the best match of all time is, but I know for SURE that I wouldn’t be able to call it on a match I’d just watched live and in the moment.
Statement #2: High-concept gimmick matches, like the Royal Rumble, cannot truly be reviewed on the same 5-star scale that you use for traditional pro-wrestling matches.
Steve Cook: FACT – The 1992 Royal Rumble match is my favorite match of all time. It had most of the stars I loved at the time & close to perfect booking, along with incredible announcing from Bobby Heenan & Gorilla Monsoon, my favorite announce team of all time. Why should I expect a one on one match or even a tag team match to equal the ecstasy I got out of a match with thirty people? That’s not fair to anybody.
Then there’s ladder matches, which I hate with the fire of a thousand suns but still am encouraged to rate positively because wrestlers tried to kill themselves. I would like a world where we could rate all of these things separately, but it probably won’t happen.
In an ideal world, we could rate these matches on their own merits separately. We don’t live in an ideal world, so people will keep asking me why I didn’t love a random ladder match that made no sense more than an actual wrestling match that made sense. It is what it is.
Theo Sambus: FICTION – Technically, there’s a little bit of FACT here, as we have to recognise that as viewers, we’re watching something like the Royal Rumble in a very different way to a traditional one-on-one encounter. Having said that, every match review has to take into account the context of said match, and that includes how the gimmick is affecting the presentation. Putting up a 5-star Royal Rumble match (1992? 2001? 2018?) against a 5-star singles match isn’t a fair comparison, even if enjoyment levels are comparable. The way I see it, the 5-star scale is malleable to every match we’re watching. It basically always boils down to showmanship, technical ability, crowd engagement, spectacle, and the over-arching storyline at play.
Simple questions can be transposed regardless of the gimmick match in question. What do the wrestlers involved get out of this match? Are they all in a better position than they were coming into it? Did everyone get a chance to shine? Was I engaged and enthralled throughout the entire contest? Did I get swept up in the drama and athleticism? Were there any questionable booking decisions that took me out of it? Do I feel like I got my money’s worth?
Traditional pro-wrestling match or not, these same questions come into play. It might make it harder for a match to score highly (can every competitor really shine in a multi-man match like an Elimination Chamber or some kind of Gauntlet?) but the same scale applies, with a few notable additions. How does it compare to previous iterations of the gimmick? Did they make full use of the stipulation? Did the gimmick feel justified? This can all be covered under the same 5-star scale, so I feel pretty comfortable rating these kind of matches in the same manner.
A separate conversation may revolve around whether or not high-concept gimmick matches truly add to proceedings, as it’s rare that anyone would offer a match like that as one of their ‘favorites of all time’. TLC II would likely be in the conversation, as that’s a surefire 5-star classic, but for every one of those, there are a hundred Reverse Battle Royales…
Ryan Ciocco: FACT – I feel like I can confidently state this as a FACT. One of the reasons I feel this way is simply put, there can be WAY too many things going on at the same time for someone to catch up with and truly appreciate it. Matches such as the Royal Rumble and a battle royale have so many people in there at once with so many moving parts, that even the cameras simply cannot keep up with it.
Another reason I can confidently say FACT to this is simply put, the structure of a big multi person match does not adhere to the same structure that a singles match, a tag team match, or even a six man or eight-man tag match does. Most of the time (but not always), you really cannot get a good story line or interesting progression out of the multi person match. The deepest that it gets is, “Person A has Person B on the ropes, looking for the elimination, but here comes Person C to help. Oh, no, Person B is in serious trouble, how will they ever escape? What is this? Person B has managed to take both Person A and Person C over the top and to the floor to eliminate them! What a thinking person’s person!”
“Traditional” is also highly subjective, but that’s how I feel about it, anyway.
Statement #3: By standards you use to review matches today, this is a 5-star match:
Theo Sambus: FACT – In what world is this NOT a 5-star match?! It’s the pinnacle of sports entertainment, with everything coming together on the grandest stage – the story, the emotion, the technical prowess, the crowd reaction. There’s a reason this match is studied and pored over by trainees, along with still being a prime example shown to non-fans of what wrestling is capable of.
It’s not just nostalgia speaking, either. The pacing throughout the entire match is pitched to perfection. Just listen to the roar from the crowd when Steamboat starts mounting a comeback – it’s unbelievable, and shows just how invested they were, biting on every second of action. Savage’s selling of the arm is magnificent after just a few arm drags and the arm wringer over the top rope, subtly letting everyone know that Steamboat momentarily got the better of him. I love that they set the precedent early of the quick pinfalls and the back and forth, creating intense drama as we work towards the closing stretch of pinfalls.
By today’s standards, what would we critique about the match? Steamboat breaks a cardinal sin by wearing white without bleeding buckets – semiotics, people! Some of the offense like the axe handles and the head chops look a little hokey. Maybe we could have stretched out the drama a little longer after George Steele gets involved to amp up the crowd even more? Honestly, I’m clutching at straws – it’s an all-timer.
This is of course another case where context is everything. Put that exact match blow-for-blow on Main Event in 2025 between R-Truth and Carlito (random example plucked out of thin air?) and sure, you’d commend them for a really smart, technically sound match, but there’s no way it would set the world on fire in the same way. It’s the context of the match and that culmination of all the factors leading up to Wrestlemania that push it over the edge into greatness.
Anyway, not that this masterpiece even remotely needs my seal of approval, but if by some chance you’ve never seen Steamboat/Savage, you owe it to yourself as a fan to check it out now. Like, right now this instant; just click play and stop reading please, thanks.
Ryan Ciocco: FACT – By ANYONE’S standards to review matches today, Randy and Ricky is 5-star match. I can confidently say that now, 34 years after the fact, and I feel like, as the years went by from one WrestleMania to the next one, that sentiment holds true.
Remember what I said above about the structure of the match? Savage and Steamboat had a strong structure going into the match, and they adhered to the KISS concept, or Keep It Simple Stupid, for those unaware. They were able to tell a great story within the ropes, they didn’t stray too far from the formula that both men were known for, and they made the most out of, if my memory serves me correctly, less than 12 minutes that they got for their Intercontinental Title match?
Not every match needs high risk spots, infinitely spammed finishers, and a thousand near-falls/false finishes to touch the 5-star class. It certainly doesn’t hurt but, at the same time, these things can get boring and cumbersome. Sometimes, all you need is just two fantastic wrestlers going out there and wrestling the absolute best match that they can, leading the crowd along for the ride, and making time feel like it is standing still. Randy and Ricky did that at WrestleMania III.
Steve Cook: FACT – Ricky Steamboat & Randy Savage were both perfectionists. How they got there annoyed each other. Savage was very scripted in his ways of doing things, Steamboat was of the philosophy of calling it in the ring. Two of the greatest workers I’ve ever seen intersecting in an incredible angle. This is one of those instances where what happened prior to the match leads to the match and makes everything make sense. Sometimes we get this today, sometimes we don’t. Sometimes we get seven plus stars assigned to a match, sometimes we don’t.
Savage vs. Steamboat was influential to a lot of folks that ended up getting into the business. Chris Jericho, Adam Copeland & many others have cited that match as inspiring to them. Maybe we see “better” matches now, but I wonder how influential they are for future wrestlers. Hopefully the Young Bucks influence a ton of young folks into becoming pro wrestlers…we haven’t seen it yet.
I don’t love the George Steele interference spot, but I get how it was part of the feud. I won’t knock that off of my WrestleMania III Savage vs. Steamboat rating. Five snowflakes. No glass, cry me a river.
Thanks so much to Steve, Ryan and Theo for taking part in this week’s tournament finals. Who do you think said enough to become the winner of the 3rd semi-annual FoF tradition? Please vote below.
And don’t forget the GoFundMe for Larry’s daughters is still active, please follow the link for more details:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/larrymania-living-on-in-his-girls
